Curse

ZenRgy · Aug 16, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

USE
PARAGRAPHS

They could use a buff, and I would read your post but the poor grammar tells me otherwise.

Also giving them 85 base AL is actually more than a warrior seeing as they are either 80 / 90 +X +Shield Armour (unless you use a hammer) or the 100 AL armour, but 13 str is stupid. I think 75 or 80 might be good. Or some better defense / shadow stepping.

Claymore · Aug 16, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

If the sin's sux so bad then Evil and the top guilds must be hacking cause theres no way they can put a build together like that! /end sarcasim

Guys its simple, spend the time, dial in your skill bar to reflect you personal tastes and go kill. The class is fine, if it was as bad as some say then nobody,NOBODY even Guilds like EVIL would be using it or able to dial it in so well. It comes down to how much time you want to spend on the char, if you want an invincible mindless sword swinging killing machine, build a Wammo.

JR · Aug 16, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Assassins are not underpowered. End of discussion.

Ure Maker · Aug 16, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

i got an assasin and well pretty much takes anything out, he has the 15k imperial armour so it is max, and well look at which skills do what and look at the energy, i have to admit i got a A/R mainly for whirling for that bit of defence but even at the i jump in take as much out of the target then get outa there fast, mainly caus an assasins job is to either

1. take out an opponent fast
2. condition causer
3. damage dealer ( in which i mean if there is a large group of enemies target the monk jump in do as much as possible and have another finish them, thats what team work is for, have a mesmer with you and you will take anything out, plus CALL your target when you go in, any good player will look at was has been called see its a monk and proceed to attack him/her)

learn to adapt and make worth of what you have

Pick Me · Aug 16, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

The OP posted again as I was typing this, so for any inconsistencies see the area labeled EDIT: at the end of the post.

Here are the points the OP made, in an easy-to-understand format. I will make my own responses to them AFTER I finish listing them out.

1. Assassins have very little self-healing compared to other professions.
2. Daggers have a low base damage, and should be buffed to 15-22 like a sword.
3. Assassins are meant to be played in a hit-and-run style, yet have few skills to support this. Thus, their armor level should be increased to compensate.
4. Assassins have very few blocking or evasion skills, which is a problem as they are melee characters.
5. Shadow Form is an awful skill in that it takes up an elite, and once it runs out you're dead.

The rest is pretty incomprehensible to me, might I suggest you look at Rule #9 in the Forum Rules, OP?

And in his second post...

6. The Energy cost for Assassin skills is too high, and combos aren't possible when you expend 35 energy to do one combo and get out.

Also, read above for the argument on dagger damage. Trust me, it's unnecessary. Sins do enough damage as it is. Besides, what's gonna hurt more? A 4-inch dagger wound or an 12-inch sword gash?

I've edited Relambrien's post because I didn't need his opinion on the OP's statement (even though it is valid.

)

The assassin has many self-healing techniques, which is better than the Elementalist or the Mesmer's self-healing powers (I believe).

I agree that daggers look like they are low damage, but why should it be compared to a sword? I mean seriously, if someone flashed a dagger or a sword, I would be more afraid of a sword than a dagger. We are not talking about Ginsu knives here, right? Why not compare it to Axes or Hammers then? I mean an axe is as sharp as a sword, and a hammer uses two hands just like daggers do. Honestly, who has more damage potential? Two daggers doing Max damage + 20 damage from a skill or a sword doing Max damage + 20 damage from a skill? Daggers can hit twice (dual attack), while a sword can only hit once. So having daggers do the same base damage as a sword is unbalanced.

There are many hit-and-run tactics, or are you saying that Warriors have more hit and run skills that Assassins should be the same as warriors?

Agreed, they have few blocking or evading skills, that is why they have teleporting skills and should use hit-and-run tactics. Thus no tanking.

Shadow Form + running/teleporting + out of aggro = safe assassin. It is an emergency protection skill. I don't have this skill yet, so I don't know if you could use it when you have less than x life, then when it ends, does it heal you until you have that minimum life? I.E. when it ends, you lose all but 50 health. So if you have 3 health and then you use it, when it ends, do you still end with 50 health?

Try using Generous Was Tsungrai, drop it when Shadow Form ends. You get more life back (or use Reversal of Fortune as a cover enchantment).

If you believe that Assassins have no problems in PvE (because PvE is easy compared to PvP), then you should have no problems with the Assassin the way it is. Bosses in PvE are more powerful than any character in PvP. People are usually more intelligent than the computer's AI. So, if you can beat a less intelligent powerful foe, then you should be able to beat a less powerful slightly more intelligent player. In theory that is what should happen. But people complain about Touch Rangers, Elementalists are too under powered, Warriors can't take elemental damage anymore, etc. People should start adjusting their tactics and their skills to tackle any adjustments that ANet does or that people have decided to do (creating different builds), instead of staying what used to work and complain about it.

Naturally, I won't be opposed to any buffs regarding Assassins, but I don't see anything wrong with the way they are.

Relambrien · Aug 16, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

@Pick Me

Unless you were quoting for his arguments and not mine, you quoted the wrong part of the post, that's where I was listing out what he said. My responses were between number 6 and my comparison about 4-inch wounds and 12-inch gashes.

However, if you were quoting how I interpreted his post, you were completely correct.

EDIT: And yeah, Shadow Form takes you to x life, regardless of how much life you have. Thus, if you use it with three Health left, you will actually be healed.

@the OP

Please don't think that I'm trying to belittle you or anything with these posts; I just thought people would better understand what you meant if it was laid out differently. Thanks for understanding.

pve-er · Aug 16, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I think there should be a buff in Assassin but not really radical.

It will be nice to increase the damage of dagger but NOT as much as sword or a staff (15~22) because of dual attack does make Assassin has faster attack then warriror. but top at 17 is a bit low, maybe top the attack at 20 will be nice
Tank [in 4sec, you make 3 hit and deal 3x22=66]
Sinn [in 4 sec, you make 3.5 hit (4 if you have 16 on DM) 3.5x17=59
Even a caster can do better then that, where is the balance since mesmer or air ele can do same amount of damage without walking into the mob?

ANet need to work on the AI of random shadow steping, viper defense is a nice skill except it often teleport the Sinn into worse place in the battle. for example. when a Sinn attack the caster, a group of melee round you up at the back, viper defense triggered by their attack, you are forced into courner. viper defense teleport you further into the courner or teleport you at the same place because there is a wall behind you

this need to be work on

Shadow form is a nice skill. but the amount of health left and the recharge time is a bit harsh, cost 10EN is one thing but left only 44 at lvl 11 on SA) when it end is a bit hard for the Sinn and the monk. maybe double that amount of health left will be nice both for Sinn and Monk (if a Sinn run to far behind, monk can't take care of you and the teammates, if don't run too far, everyone will target a Sinn that can be kill by merely 1 hit/spell). 60 Sec recharge time, is way too long, Come on, in 30 second , most skill are recharge, you are healed by yourself or monk, Energy will reach the max even if a Sinn use EN+5 weapon. make it 45 to be fair and efficient.

rechrge time of other shedow step should be reduce by 5 second if "in and out " is the spirit of a Sinn

Shadow refuge should increase the duration to 6 second and the additional heal should NOT be "while attacking" so that people DON"T tank. as the name suggest, "Refuge" has anyone see refugee fighting in the front line? it should be use when someone are running or teleporting out of a battle. the Health regeneration will keep a Sinn alive under the effact of conditions and the healing at the end should be prepare a Sinn for spiking the next target. else the Refuge part is gone.

Death Charge is wierd too, why you need to attack an enemy when you need to be healed ? if you take damage, you run for healing and safty zone. not charge into the back of mob

these are a few on top of my head, I will add more if something come out of my mind

Pick Me · Aug 16, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

@Pick Me

Unless you were quoting for his arguments and not mine, you quoted the wrong part of the post, that's where I was listing out what he said. My responses were between number 6 and my comparison about 4-inch wounds and 12-inch gashes.

However, if you were quoting how I interpreted his post, you were completely correct.

EDIT: And yeah, Shadow Form takes you to x life, regardless of how much life you have. Thus, if you use it with three Health left, you will actually be healed.

@the OP

Please don't think that I'm trying to belittle you or anything with these posts; I just thought people would better understand what you meant if it was laid out differently. Thanks for understanding.

I just quoted your interpretation of the OP's initial post. That is why I didn't have your opinion (response to the OP's post) included.

Thanks for the info on Shadow Form.

Amy Awien · Aug 16, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent assasin dusk

oh and also prodidgy i normally get target dead in 1 trip jagged-wild-ox/blossom then golden lotus-wild-ox/blossom that kills my target then i get out and heal

Interesting,

Jagged > bleeding ... DoT ??
Wild Strike > +18
Death Blossom > +35

Golden Lotus > +17
Wild > +18
Horns of the Ox > +27

18+35+17+18+27 = 115 plus another 70 basedamage from attacking ... that leaves about 300 HP on the target, so how does it kill them?

Xx Invictus xX · Aug 16, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

daggers are probably 7-17 because of the double striking

Assasins get screwed on combos though... if someone does shield bash to a warrior skill he still has other attacks...

if assassin hits into shield bash ... the recharge can make them useless for 30 seconds...

thats a big downer... if assassins have low armor and there attack chains .... get busted.... they are screwed...

SCREWED

edit: the guy above me has never played guild wars ... he feels that when it says +27 it only does +27 well it does +27 on top of your attack

the guy above me has never played an assassin... he doesnt know that a dual attack hits twice...

the guy above me...

hi

Silver_Fang · Aug 16, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xx Invictus xX

edit: the guy above me has never played guild wars ... he feels that when it says +27 it only does +27 well it does +27 on top of your attack

the guy above me has never played an assassin... he doesnt know that a dual attack hits twice...

the guy above me...

hi

The guy above me is too mean

The guy above me forgot to mention dagger do double strike as well so it is not 70 damage from dagger

The guy above me forgot to say he didnt factor in Critical strike.

Kate Bloodspirit · Aug 16, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I disagree energy is bad on assassins. The high energy cost skills compensate with assassins having 4 pips of energy regen plus natural energy net gain from landing attacks (provided a good spec in Critical strikes), which nets you about 6-8 pips of regen while attacking? Not bad.

I think the reason AL is so low (and yet not so low compared to more critical classes like monks for example) is because of shadow steps. Being able to teleport in and get out easily, it'd wouldn't make sense that you're a highly armored tank, would it? you're already passing straight through and around back enemy's offense back into your defense.

Also I'd like to comment on the daggers damage. It's assassin native to have not only the net damage from the daggers, but the ability to put lots of pips of health degeneration on your enemy, conditions and buff/debuff hexes all over the place. Which is why I don't think daggers need a buff dued to the overall dps/effectiveness of the class.

Karmaniac · Aug 16, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

For some reason whenever a discussion starts about assassins lacking people start gettting delusional and rant about how they totally PWN Grenth outta everything and that there's nothing wrong with assassin offense. If by surprise this is not the case they start arguing that the daggers base damage is too small. Yet many of the threads never address how broken shadowstepping is- the useful ones having rec of 45-60s.

Trick question: how are you supposed to hit and run without any decent hit-and-run skills? And how come the only useful self heal (and I'm using the word "useful" very loosely) encourages you to remain in combat for extended amount of time? To put it bluntly where's the hit and run part I keep hearing people talk about? This question was posed in the spirit that assassins contrary to popular belief have more than one elite skill.

Yanman.be · Aug 16, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

http://media.putfile.com/Yanman-Goes-Ra 'nuff said

prodigy ming · Aug 16, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Bloodspirit

I think the reason AL is so low (and yet not so low compared to more critical classes like monks for example) is because of shadow steps. Being able to teleport in and get out easily, it'd wouldn't make sense that you're a highly armored tank, would it? you're already passing straight through and around back enemy's offense back into your defense.

The problem is anyone can use shadow stepping skill. Why does only sins have to compensate with low armor?
And one of the main argument is you CAN"T teleport in and out easily due to poor shadow stepping skills.

Pick Me · Aug 16, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

For some reason whenever a discussion starts about assassins lacking people start gettting delusional and rant about how they totally PWN Grenth outta everything and that there's nothing wrong with assassin offense. If by surprise this is not the case they start arguing that the daggers base damage is too small. Yet many of the threads never address how broken shadowstepping is- the useful ones having rec of 45-60s.

Trick question: how are you supposed to hit and run without any decent hit-and-run skills? And how come the only useful self heal (and I'm using the word "useful" very loosely) encourages you to remain in combat for extended amount of time? To put it bluntly where's the hit and run part I keep hearing people talk about? This question was posed in the spirit that assassins contrary to popular belief have more than one elite skill.

Hit - and - run combo - do your 3 hit combo (or 4 or 5, whatever), use a running skill or teleport out (such as cast recall, run in attack, remove recall). Cast SR, do combo - by then the 4 seconds are up and your last hit happens at end of SR. Remove Recall and poof, you are back in safe area. Where is the encouragement to stay?

Am I A Good Sin · Aug 16, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Ty for all the tips ppl. Btw I think sins r good as r ( but maybe a lil less downtime 5 seconds at most ) I just started thread because every1 complains constantly bout sins. When some1 tries to change em well this happens. SO STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT SINS! I figured I might get every1 to stop complaining if they complimented sins instead of complaining. Reverse phsycology there my friends. Btw the new name is roto master sin when I'm online.

Jonny_rottened · Aug 16, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

i believe the only part of the assassin that needs to be changed is the defensive aspect, ive been playing with my ranger twice as long as my assassin and the deaths are more twice as much for the assassin but the kills are about the same.

assassin 1250 deaths
ranger 400deaths

i know that a ranger isnt in the combat like an assassin but the ranger armor is lowered because of that.

just my opinion

Kenji Akatsuki · Aug 17, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

the assassin doesnt need another heal skill, or even a longer one at that. the heal is just to lick the wounds u take after u kill your opponent. armor is bad yes but it just adds to the theme and makes the player stress out the whole in and out thing. i agree w/ whoever said its the player not the class, that is true. the assassin can have 100 armor and if its played stupidly itll still die

hated · Aug 17, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Rangers also have the added protection of elemental defense in their armor. While assassins have straight out 70 armor, meaning a spell is going to hit for damn near full damage.

Also since shadow stepping doesn't break target yet, the spell still hits even after a sin steps away. Which by this fact alone should destroy the whole "hit and run" idea, when using teleports.

Again I state that assassin teleports should have an above 4 attribute failure clause. After all they are spells like any other, and aside from the huge spike ability of sins one of the big reasons sins were created. No one should be able to use them with as much effect as an assassin.

No don't bring up rangers using necro touch skills WAY better then necros, it's not a solid comparison in any way, shape, or form. Necro's weren't created for the ability to run up and touch someone, they were created to make massive armies of death and no one does it better. Rit's come close, but a necro will always have the edge.

Assassins were created to shadow step, but as it stands now if your really going for that just make a X/a. Any other class has a better way of using the steps, and can defend themselves better as well.

Also to the arguement of TOP (<--see big letters?) guilds using assassins to great effect...

1.) That's pvp with awesome group play, which not a lot of people have.

2.) Like Bahamut Kazier (sorry if I mispelled that) said, "if a master can kill with a spoon, that doesn't make a spoon a great weapon," or something like that.

Just because top guilds can use the sin to great effect doesn't mean they are balanced. It doesn't mean that everyone is an expert with a sin, and it doesn't mean that they should have to be either.

Final statement; if anet really wants to keep assassins chars so very vunrable and easy to kill, then give them better shadow steps that actually allow them to stay alive.

Thanks for reading